Bestselling first book in a science fiction trilogy.
And has co-edited a number of titles, including Ben Clanton's bestselling Narwhal and Jelly series, with Tara Walker and Kelly Armstrong's A Royal Guide to Monster Slaying series with Lynn Missen. He's looking
forward to growing the Tundra Book Group fiction list
And he's especially interested in genre fiction, including fantasy, science fiction, and horror.
Up, next is Bhavna Chauhan. She is the Editorial Director, Commercial Publishing at Doubleday Canada.
She's drawn to projects with strong, layered character and voice and deeply human experiences, and stories that offer delicious escapes from the everyday.
She's the Canadian editor of Taylor Jenkins Reid, internationally bestselling author of Daisy Jones & The 6; and Shari Lapena, author of the global bestseller,
The Couple Next Door. Most recently, she has worked on Every Step She Takes by #1 New York Times
bestselling author, Kelley Armstrong; Two for the Road by Chantel Guertin; My Mother's Daughter
by Canadian Olympian Perdita Felicien; and Tajja
Isen's essay collection, Some of My Best Friends.
Thank you, and and thank you for joining
Thank you, Felicia.
Thank you.
Hi! Sorry I don't know what happened
Oh, Hi, Janie, that's okay. We're I just did the.
I just introduced everybody. Now this is perfect timing.
You get to go right into the questions. Amazing.
Oh, excellent. Okay. Again, apologies everyone, and not the, you know.
I'm an editor. I'm not the swiftest with technology, although I think Bhavna and Peter probably are, are much better than I am.
But we're so pleased that everyone is joining us today, and I'm very excited to ask Bhavna and Peter a little bit about their experience in editorial.
We hope that it's really helpful to all of you.
So to start, why don't you guys tell us a little bit about your educational and professional background, and particularly the experiences that were useful in building your current career?
Bhavna, would you like to start?
I'd be so happy to thank you. I went to University of Toronto, and I graduated with an English degree, and I, like many English graduates, looked at it and thought, What will I do with this?
My options felt quite limited. I thought I'll go to Teachers College.
I'll go to grad school and do my masters, or my something else or maybe I'll go to law school, and the, the most formative part of I think my education for publishing was my very first job at Chapters. I was 16, and I worked in the kids book section and moved around the store.
And I worked there for 9 years. I worked through high school, through university, after university, when I decided I don't think I can go do my masters in English lit.
What will I do with that? It was sort of the place where I stopped to collect myself, and think about what I wanted to do.
And at the time Random House, at the time, was sending a lot of their sales reps to bookstores, to Chapters and Indigo stores to talk to the booksellers, and I met a couple of the reps from Random House, and was just sort of stunned.
I realized, oh, wait! There's a job here. I love books.
I've spent so much time working in this business. Let's, let me see what I can do with that. I signed up for one of the publishing programs,
TMU, and just began doing my courses and applied for an internship.
It was an intern at Doubleday in, in 2008, and I have been at Random House ever since.
Oh, wow!
I've spent more than half of my life in the book business.
So, yeah, a very.
And did you grow up in Toronto as well
I grew up in Brampton, and then Caledon for a bit.
So you know, wasn't really aware that there was a, a publishing industry in Toronto.
It wasn't, when I thought about publishing, when I actually thought about it and stopped
and I considered it, it felt like it was really cloistered.
Not something that anyone really, you know, talked about so I was so grateful to meet those reps who illuminated a path for me.
What I was worried that I would just not be able to find one with an English degree.
So. But yeah.
I feel like, maybe that's not changed for English degree graduates.
Possibly
Probably not.
It could be wrong.
And Peter, what about you? Why don't you tell us a little, like,
did you also grow up in Toronto, and then
Oh, nice!
No, I'm actually from the east coast. So I grew up in, in New Brunswick, in a very small island off the coast.
So I went to Toronto for, for secondary education.
I also went to U of T with an English degree so definitely some similarities there, and I, after graduating, I, I too asked the age-old question of "What do I do with this degree?" Considered journalism for a hot minute and then,
And I didn't have the bookseller experience.
It was something I always wanted to do, but it never sort of panned out, so. And I'd always been an avid reader,
really loved books, especially fiction. So when I saw that again TMU had the publishing degree, I jumped at the chance.
Took some courses, was very lucky enough to get an internship.
My first internship was with U of T Press, so the more scholarly side of publishing, which wasn't. It was a good experience.
It wasn't for me. And then my second internship was with Doubleday as well.
So that was, that was in 2014 and I loved it so at the time,
the internships were 3 month stints, and then I was,
I was very, very lucky that a position opened up sort of right when my internship was, was ending, so I
So did you start out in the adult side? Okay.
I did. Yeah, yeah, I did. Started. Yes, yeah. And then slowly, over the years, transitioned more towards the kids book side and haven't looked back since.
Okay, was that like a regression of your own. That's just a joke.
Hi, yeah, it's funny. Nice. It's good. Yeah, yeah, we, we are.
That was a joke. I'm sorry. Hmm.
I mean, you know us in the kids group, we, we, we are kind of like kids ourselves.
That's good.
We sort of have to be. Yeah, yeah, it is fun. Yeah.
Oh, wow!
It was. I think so. My, my very first job, I was the assistant for Doubleday, McClelland & Stewart, Appetite, and the Tundra Book Group which, before the, the imprint sort of got rejigged a little bit later so that each of them had their own assistant which made a lot of
sense, but it was a really nice starting role, because I got a chance to sort of see how you know 4 different imprints work.
And it's very different. The sort of the ins and outs of every day.
And the, the kids group. Always. I, I you know, I always had a soft spot for kids books, and we really clicked.
It was. It was, I think, a personality fit first and foremost, and then it, it became what I wanted to do
So can you tell us a little bit, and then Bhavna, I'll, I'll ask you to think about the response to the same question,
but a little bit about your job now. What kinds of books you work on?
Maybe give a glimpse of what a day-to-day
looks like even though I know it's, it's a little hard to capture, because every day is never the same in publishing, I found.
Yeah.
Absolutely, absolutely. No. It's true. Yeah, and that's one of the joys, too. I think.
I mean, that's as you heard in my bio,
I like to work on all kinds of projects. I think I work on one of, kind of every genre, every age category.
So picture books and board books for even younger kids leading up to chapter
books when they get a little bit older, some graphic novels, both for younger kids and for older sort of YA,
middle grade audiences. And then, yeah, straight up fiction.
So middle grade and YA, and so it's just in the last 2 or 3 years that I, I became an editor.
And so now I, I'm sort of I'm helping to manage a list
basically. So I'm acquiring titles. So, and I'm sure we'll get more into this,
but, but when titles come to me from, from agents or authors, or illustrators, or, or both, I, I now have sort of the autonomy to, I have the, I have the power.
You have power. You abuse that power?
Yeah, exactly. I, I'd like to say no, in case any of my colleagues are are watching.
But no, we're a very collaborative group. So I think you know, everyone has to, sort of have to, has to see and appreciate a project before we can bring it to acquisition.
But I'm in the very lucky position now where I can,
I can, I can bring things forward. And so, my yeah, as you said, my, my day to day, it's a little bit of everything all of the time.
Where, especially with the kids group, we work so far in advance, due to the fact that we're working a lot on 4 color books, and many of those are printed abroad.
So our lead times for books are, you know, 6 months to a year longer.
So I've started to work on books that are currently scheduled for Fall 2025 and I'm finishing up touches on fiction which is scheduled for this fall.
So it's sort of, you're working between spans all the time.
So it's never a dull moment.
Yeah. Bhavna, can you tell us a little bit first, like just about Doubleday, and what their publishing program is?
And then what your role is.
So Doubleday we publish, like many imprints, across all categories.
We do some really fantastic literary fiction, some stirring non fiction, a lot of personality-driven stories.
So some celebrity books, personality, memoirs, that sort of thing.
My area of that is the commercial program. So commercial in, in publishing week is, you know, books that appeal to that wide mainstream audience.
A very broad audience. So we're looking at a lot of genre fiction.
Your mysteries, your thrillers, your romcoms.
Historical fiction, as well falls into that category.
It's kind of, when I describe it to people, it's, you know, the books that you may see at Costco,
you may see at Walmart. Those are the books.
So my list has, you know, it was in my bio, Felicia read it out. You know, Taylor Jenkins Reid, Shari Lapena, Kelley Armstrong. We've also worked with, we published Trevor Noah's brilliant memoir
Hmm.
Tajja Isen, you know, some really great personalities and thinkers and storytellers, so.
And you guys did Bono's book? Right? Yes, okay.
Hmm.
We did Bono. But yeah, we did Bono's book in the fall, which was fantastic and has performed really well.
And he, you know he fits right on, right at home on our list.
So you know, we have a fantastic array of different voices, and I get to work with some of them which is really cool and like, pinch me moments.
You know some of my very favorite authors that I was reading when I was a teenager,
you know, I get to work with, and, and that's really exciting.
In terms of you know what a day looks like, like, Peter said,
it's so different. You know, today I spent most of the day reading a submission that I was super excited about.
So we get submissions from agents, and I received one, and I was reading it furiously, talking about it with my colleagues.
My day also consisted of touching base with designers on covers, that, you know, for books that are underway because
We also have to do that, and then I'm also connecting with agents. A big part of the job is relationship building.
So you know you have to connect with agents and, and, and build, build a rapport with them.
Kind of find out what, what they're, what they're representing, what they're working on with their authors.
You want to get on those lists, those submission lists.
They need to know what you're interested in looking for, you know that's a, that's a huge part. So I spend some time today talking to a couple of agents and then also connected with my writers that are busy working right now. I have a lot of them toiling away on
manuscripts, and even though they may not need me, you know, in the sense that they need me on paper and I've got to get in there right now, I still need to cheerlead them in some way.
So just connecting, how are you doing? Do you need anything? I'm here if you want to chat.
So that's, you know. That's part of it as well.
Every, everyday there's a little bit of that. But yeah, lots of reading, reading submissions, falling woefully behind on submissions, and begging forgiveness from agents, and discussing projects and connecting with other departments, and talking about plans for a book and visions for
publishing. You know, so much of editorial work is so isolating, like I think there are a few hours
today where I didn't, you guys know, like, I didn't talk to anyone, just head down.
But then you have to emerge, and you have to talk to sales about something, or you have to talk to marketing about something, and you know every, we touch every aspect of a book's publication from beginning to end.
We never, we never stopped touching it, which is a great thing,
I think.
Yeah, I think editorial is interesting because it's ground zero.
Always.
Yeah.
So it's for everything begins and, and it's also all the way through to the end.
Yeah.
So. So you end up sort of being in touch with every single department, for sure.
Yeah. And you hold so much, right? Like you hold so much for authors.
Yeah.
You know their hopes and dreams, and like, it's all, it's a lot yeah, and a lot in the very best way.
Yeah.
It's a special relationship that you have a publication with
Yeah.
Now, you guys both mentioned that, you know, you both did
the internship route. You both went to TMU and did the publishing program.
I mean, I guess what's, the question is, is, you know, do you think if someone's wanting to break in that they have to do the publishing program, that they have to do an internship to sort of even get a kind of an entry level position, what are your thoughts on that?
And and have you seen changes within both of your organizations?
Bhavna, do you want to go first?
Yeah.
Sure. So there's definitely been changes, you know. We, I think it was a couple of years ago, right, Peter, like our new internship program, launched. Peter, you know, discussed and talked a little bit about the internship program, as it was when he joined nearly 10 years ago, which I cannot believe, Peter.
I know, I know.
I really can. I remember when you joined, but you know, at the at the time is 3 months, and it was unpaid.
But you know there was some really fantastic conversation over the last little while, and we have this amazing team at PRHC that developed this incredible program for interns where they've removed a lot of the barriers that were preventing
a more diverse pool of applicants, essentially. You know, you don't necessarily have to go through a publishing program, before it was,
you know, the people who, the students who are in the Ryerson, Humber, Centennial programs.
Yeah.
They get kind of first dibs right at the internship, and that's admittedly why I signed up for the internship, because I thought, that job board. I didn't even finish my TMU certificate.
I, I did a few courses, and then was super lucky to find place at Doubleday.
But you get on it for the job board. At least that's what I did. And here's the thing, like, I don't necessarily think, I think you can learn a lot,
the, the nature of the now 6 Month interest program is, you learn a lot, you know, from the people that you work with for an extended period of time, and you get paid, which is great.
I think it is very helpful, especially for editorial.
If you have some experience in a copy editing course, or if you have, I always say, you know, check out the copy editing course at TMU, check out the trade book, publishing overview course.
Yeah.
It just gives you a great primer. So you you just speak a little bit of the language right?
Because we do have. We have our language in publishing.
Yeah, I mean, I think, the copyediting course, is kind of essential for everyone, because it's just like grammar.
It's just stuff that I think is lost over as you grow up.
Agreed. There you go. Yeah, agreed.
But I don't know that anyone learns it properly.
Great. Yeah.
Agreed not. Yeah.
And then I think, like, you know, to point out about copyediting, when you take a copyediting
course, it's not just learning about the the sort of intricacies of punctuation and grammar and spelling, but it's also learning, as Bhavna.
Yeah.
was pointing out, like the way you mark up a page which so, with that in itself, has its own sort of symbols, we use a certain kind of symbols to communicate with design, who, or, or with the author, whoever, so now it's a little different because we more use
Microsoft word. But if you're marking up a page proof by hand, which sometimes still happens, then, yeah, that's useful. Peter?
I would say, even the copyediting course was great, but honestly one of the first courses
I took at, at the continuing education school was a grammar and punctuation course.
Just very basic grammar and punctuation and I sort of, as an English major,
I scoffed and said, I don't need to take this, but honestly, it was one of the best courses I took.
It's really technical. Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
And really, yeah, yeah, I just drilled down. It's like, it's making me forget that all the bad habits I had picked up over the years and just makes you think about, you know, text and language.
And, and the way we read.
Now, I think somebody had a really good question, too, which is, you know.
Do you have to have an English degree, do you think? To, to move into publishing?
And, you know, my secondary question is, you know, how was the degree? Like, how was a humanities degree
sort of useful, though?
I think I mean, I think the nice thing about university is that you know, it,
it can, it can teach you how to consider critically which I think is such a big part of being an editor. Specifically English, I mean, I enjoyed my English degree.
I think it did teach me to be a better reader.
It's sort of, I mean, it helped me form my tastes, which I, which I still have, and I think it, I mean it just it, you know,
it adds to an appreciation of the written word. But I honestly, I, I don't think it's wholly necessary anymore.
If, if it ever really was. I think, I mean so many of us come from English just because, as Bhavna alluded to, what what else do we do?
But at the same time, I think, you know, there's so many, there's so many people coming from different streams, from, from, from every different interest, level or program, who have that lifelong interest in books.
And I think, that's, I mean, that's where it starts.
Yeah.
Yeah, I have to agree. I think, I certainly I do think, just sort of having that background
knowledge of so many books, and I still reach for the, you know, one of the books that I read in a seminar course in my fourth year when I'm thinking of comps, like comparative titles for a book.
Oh, yeah.
I still sometime, sometimes find a good chestnut, but it really taught me how to analyze works, and that is such a huge part of what we do, especially when you know you've got a hot submission.
And you know an option is breathing down your back, and you have to think, okay, am I
rushing and trying to do this because it's an option, or is it,
you know? Can I read this critically? And it is, there is a muscle there. At the same time,
I all, I think, gosh! Like, do you love reading? Like that is the one, we, so many of us come from so many different walks of life, you know not just at PRHC, but just across Canadian publishing.
We're also different. So many editors, we're all so different.
But we all love to read, and I think that that is the thing, that passion for reading.
That veracity, that, you know, interest. And what's happening in the market?
And what's this book? You don't need to know
Simon & Schuster is publishing this, and HarperCollins is publishing this,
but just knowing what's happening in that world is so essential.
Yeah.
I think that's most important. Really.
So we have some, wow, we've got a lot of questions.
I see that? Yeah.
Yeah, that's a question. Yeah.
This is a lot of great questions. I think one of the ones that comes up a lot,
it's a good question, it's something I think our industry has been grappling with, is what if you don't live in Ontario? What if you don't live in Toronto? Because I think, you know, like, a lot of, you know Canada's not unique in that
publishing is centralized mostly in sort of Toronto, but there are also publishers, many, many excellent publishers across the country.
So what is your advice to people in terms of how do you break through?
If, you, you know, and also Toronto is an expensive city.
So, Peter, you wanna you want to try to
Sure, I mean, I would say one of the nice things, well, maybe the only nice thing about the pandemic is that it has decentralized a lot of businesses, and I think publishing has, has proven to be one of those, certainly we, I think when we made that big change over to our internship
program, we opened it up across Canada, and before it was sort of, it felt more essential to have interns on, on hand in the office, learning the day to day, and I think, I mean you do pick up a lot from from just even overhearing conversations in the office or seeing the way an office can
function, and especially in an editorial group too one of those sort of more even collaborative groups.
But I think these days it's, it's changed quite a bit.
You can be anywhere across Canada and still have an excellent internship experience, and I mean, I believe we've, we've hired people who do not live in Toronto.
I mean, and I myself, I moved during the pandemic.
I'm, I'm an hour and a half away now from Toronto, and so I, I don't go in the office.
I'm not in the office every day, or even every week, and I can,
I can still be, a, you know, a big part of our group, and, and I, I haven't lost that collaboration because I think you know, we've got the technology these days.
You don't have to be in-person anymore. So I would say, you don't.
Yeah, absolutely. You don't have to be in Toronto to, to, to get into publishing at all.
Yeah, editorial work in particular is quite elastic in that way.
Yeah.
Isn't it? Like so much, I, I would, when I was, when we were in the office every day,
I think, Gosh! How does anyone get any editing done? Like I would just, I couldn't.
I could not figure it out. It was like a puzzle
I just could not crack, and you know, coming into fully remote,
obviously, you know, there were benefits. I could put my head down, and I could edit.
Oh, I know salmon, rusty
I certainly missed the social aspects of it, the connections, seeing authors, and just, the experience of seeing you know John Grisham in the office, right, like, which has happened, you know, like stuff like that, or Ethan Hawke, or you know, or yeah, like that's amazing.
But we've adapted so well, and you know I think all of our, all of our positions now, like any new positions are always noted as being hybrid, and you know we welcome those applicants. That is explicit.
It's not just, you know it, it's preferred, or you know it's welcome, like we invite everyone understanding that there are so many barriers, and I understand, like I started, you know, in 2008 in publishing proper and I couldn't afford to live in Toronto. I
Couldn't afford to live in Toronto on, on an assistant-to-the-publisher's salary.
Hmm.
I was, you know, commuting every day and it took me a while to be able to make the move
down here, and, and I think we've only just become more understanding of that
and the conversation around, just yeah, just how, how tough it is, you know, and what an expensive city you know,
this, the center of Canadian publishing is.
This is another great question from Francisca.
She says, I think she says, or they say, anyway, as editors, what would you say
are the 3 skills you acquired in this position? That's a very good question.
That's a really good question.
I've never heard that.
That's a good, great! I think the greatest thing that I've learned is restraint.
It's a good one.
I think, as an editor, you know, you really are behind the scenes, right?
Like your, your job is to help tell a story, help shape a story, help bring it to the world.
And that world starts with your editorial team. Then it starts with your publishing, like the publishing team.
Then it starts with your colleagues within the house, and then it's like the rest of the world, and I think you know I've learned that it isn't, in, in house
it's my book, but it's really helping the writer find their voice and learning to not overstab learning, to not crawl into the lines and take it over, and, and that also applies, you know, like to assessing manuscripts that I'm excited about is just thinking, okay, hold
on, let's think of a plan for this. It's a great book.
How do we publish it? And, and you know these are tough conversations to sometimes have with yourself or with your publisher, or with your sales director, but they're so important, you know, because it leads into like a thoughtfulness around bringing books to the world and helping to build careers for
our writers. So that's one for me, Peter, do you?
Do you have
I would say, I mean, on kind of on the other side of the coin of that, confidence, too, in a way, because I think there's maybe still that stereotype that editors are introverts, that we spend all of our time reading,
it's not a social job, and I would say that's not true at all.
It's an incredibly social job. I mean, it's a bit of both.
But as Bhavna mentioned, I mean, it's, we're building these relationships.
I mean, we've got relationships with, with agents and authors that can last a lifetime.
I mean, you'll always hear stories, and we, we have several people in our company who have been working with the same authors for 20, 30+ years, and I think it goes a long way to, you know, learning how to relate to people and learning how to, you know, listen to people and it
all, I mean, speaking personally like, I would say, since I started this job, and since becoming an editor, certainly my, my confidence has, has been boosted because you sort of, it just brings you out of your shell, and it takes you out of yourself too.
And you're, you're not only, it's not just you on a, like, scribbling on a page.
It's, it's a collaborative process, every aspect of it.
I think also the, to just to build on that if I may, I found one of the biggest things, was challenges was like going to book launches and having to be social in that way when I, you know, I kind of have.
Yeah.
I think everyone has a little bit of social anxiety when they're walking into a room, especially at the beginning, when everyone seems to know each other.
Yeah.
And then also, I think, when, as you sort of, when you work for a publishing house, I think, whatever ,wherever you are, more than you're starting, you're in the middle, or you're at the top, there's if you're at a book, launch for your company, then it's
important to, you know, be supportive to the author, to their friends and family, to be very welcoming.
It's just sort of built into part of the job as well.
So that's something definitely. If you decide to go into publishing and if it's like a first job, that's something that becomes a part of it.
And then, I don't know. I, I, I found, and I think this picks up on what you were saying, Bhavna,
but I think certainly learning how to communicate clearly what, what are the mechanics of the story that need to be addressed within a manuscript, so that it's sort of depersonalized.
Absolute.
And it's inspiring the writer to further, you know, push themselves to really realize their vision as opposed to coming across, as overly critical and kind of pushing them and becoming inadvertently, you know, not by, you know, without purpose, you end up becoming an adversary.
So I think that those are natural stumbling blocks that are kind of trial and error often.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of question-asking, right? Like, it's, that's kind of what we do.
We're playing the role of the reader and asking questions.
And sometimes it's a huge question, sometimes it's a small one, but we're, the hope is is that that question will spark something in, in the author and maybe take the story in a different direction. Who knows?
Unlock something else. We're just kind of facilitating that.
Yeah, yeah.
Now there are others who, you know have asked, you know, if you're sort of in a thinking of a second career, or in mid-career, you know, maybe you've made it to a certain point in career, how do you, how can you break into publishing sort of more laterally as opposed to starting all
the way from the beginning? Is that something that you see a lot like?
What kind of advice would you, would you offer?
That's great question.
I feel like it. Yeah, I feel like, that's
Really good question.
I think you know, we may just be starting to see that in editorial.
I think we've seen it in other areas of publishing for a very long time,
right? People from different parts, from different industries, you know, find place, you know, in marketing or publicity
departments like, there's something a little, editorial is, is a tough arena to, to get into, right? Like it's one of those jobs that you can do for a very long time. Right?
So.
Yeah, yeah. So you don't see a lot of
Yeah, I feel very niche in a way, I think, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
I think, like, you know, in bigger territories they have editors who just acquire titles, and that the problem with Canada is that it's so small that every editor is acquiring the titles, and they're also editing the titles maybe only a publisher would acquire a
title, maybe pass it down to one of the editors, and I think the challenge with editorial is that you need to build a skill set outside of what's offered in a few courses.
It really is through experience. And that's why, in the, in the past it was traditionally like an apprenticeship kind of career, right?
I believe
Yeah.
Yeah, it's. It's a lot of like, I guess, quote unquote, softer skills as opposed to like, you know, a hard skills that you might learn elsewhere.
Yeah.
I mean, I think the interesting oh.
And learning from others around you, as well without them necessarily being directive about it, because I don't find a lot of people are
No, you're
Will say, this is what you do. But just more watching them.
Very much, so
The practice.
You're observing and reading right? It's that's your education. Like I.
Yeah.
I feel like I'm still teaching myself how to edit, because you, you can watch right, and I've I've learned from so many amazing editors.
I know Peter has as well, but it's only until you're sitting there and doing it.
But you need, you need something to begin that education, and I think, I think, it's, that can be hard.
But I, I always think you know, I always suggest there's a lot of different avenues.
There's all, there's also a lot of, you know, publishing adjacent places that you can kind of explore the industry through, Indigo being a great, a great place. I will forever sing the praises of a bookseller job.
You learn a lot. And I think that that's, that's one way, certainly, to get a crash course in our business, in our industry.
And what readers want.
And I think there are. Yeah, as you said, there are many different kinds of editors, too.
I mean all of our imprints have managing editors.
So they they don't generally edit the titles, but they manage the, the dates, and they I mean they do so much for us.
We would all be lost without our managing editors.
They make sure all the books are on track. So it's sort of, it's more of a, like a managerial kind of organizational role.
But we exactly
It's like project managing, but all of the projects, making sure that everyone's meeting their deadlines.
Yeah, yeah, it's integral, integral role. And I mean, we're very lucky, too,
because our group just recently hired 2 production editors.
So they don't acquire books, but they they help shepherd the books, you know, back and forth with production.
They're checking changes. They're doing a lot of copyediting and proofreading.
They're also looking at Art, too, and seeing, you know,
okay, this detail on this page has shifted from this page. So it's a very detail-oriented position.
But it's not. It doesn't have the same.
It's got different challenges than, say, being an acquisitions editor.
So I think there's a lot of different editorial avenues one could pursue.
This is also a really good question. I think, Bhavna, you kind of touched on that earlier.
But okay, how quickly do you have to read a manuscript and how do you know the difference between
fatigue from reading so much and a manuscript that isn't the right fit for the company?
That's a very good question.
It's really good question.
I think if any of the agents I work with are on this call, they're gonna scoff at what I say.
But I really do try to drop everything and read when an agent sends something through and it's really hard.
I, I think there's sometimes you get you sometimes get a sense of, okay,
I have a little bit of time with this manuscript.
You can get that sense, but sometimes it feels like it's on fire, and you've got a, you've got to read very, very quickly and not stop and don't look up until you're done.
So I, I read fast. I try to, you know. Sometimes it's reading a submission in a day or a few hours, and part of that is often skimming.
We have amazing scouts. So there are literary scouts that we have that we work with, who, you know, can help us in that area.
They write readers reports, and you know, that can, that can help us make a decision a little bit faster on a very hot submission.
Okay, can you explain the role of the scout? Because that's definitely something people don't know.
Yeah.
You definitely get, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So there are scouts in certain territories.
Ours are in London, and one scout in New York, and they are probably the best connected publishing people in the world.
They have relationships with every editor and every publisher and every agent, and they just sort of keep an eye out on what is
out on submission. There'll be snuck manuscripts and confidentially, and they'll share them with us. You know.
They're, they're publishing clients and provide us perspective on,
okay, so this is what some editors are saying about this project.
You know, we have editors in London reading it, and they love it.
And so and so passed on it. And we just get some insight into, you know, the publishing world, I mean, you know, Canada is its own machine, but we, we certainly, there are echoes from around the world, and we are impacted by what's happening in the UK and the US.
And, you know, Spain, and you know we certainly do feel all of that, and the scouts are really great for helping us, you know.
Keep tabs on what's hot, but also like on finding things that we're interested in, like, you know, there's certain things I'm looking for for my list and our scouts are really good about,
you know, tipping me off to something, but they're just super cool.
So yeah, I'll just make it clear. So a Scout represents a specific territory.
So if they're a UK scout they get all of the submissions from the UK.
They look through it all, and then they'll do little precis.
And then they'll highlight for their international clients what they think will work for their list.
So, just, just, just so that's clear. It's a confusing job.
Even if you do, it can still be confusing.
Actually, if you don't industry, it can. Yeah, yeah, I think we have to wrap it up.
I know.
So many questions. Can we answer them after, or I feel bad?
I feel like we just got started, actually. And there's still so many questions.
Yeah, how? To
Do you guys have any parting words? I think one,
maybe, you know, a question that came up is, do you have any recommendations for any books on, on editing that,
that, that, that you have?
Oh, for sure! I have a couple on my shelf here.
Yeah.
I love Mary Karr's The Art of Memoir.
That is a fantastic book. I recommend it to many of my writers who are writing memoirs, but it's essential reading, I think, for any editor whether or not you edit nonfiction or memoirs.
It's just you know, it's just sort of how to approach these stories and, and how to help someone find their story.
So I always recommend that. I'll look at my look at my shelf.
Peter, while you. Fantastic.
I haven't read that one. It's been so long since I've, since I've referenced any.
Any.
Bhavna, can you say that title again quickly, just for one of the viewers?
The Art of Memoir by Mary Karr. Sorry
Oh yes!
And oh, sorry! And Peter oh, what's that?
Yeah. What Editors Do by Peter Ginna.
That's a good one.
Peter Ginna. Yeah, that one's a fantastic one.
It's bookmarked. I recommend that. And Dreyer's English. Ben Dreyer is one,
he's the chief copy editor at PRH and he's written this amazing book on grammar, which you know, who would've thought that
that sounds interesting, but it is. It's a brilliant book, and I recommend it.
Those are great. Yeah, I don't have anything to add to that list.
I, I need to take a look at my reference materials.
I will, I will add The Elements of Indigenous Style, because it's really good.
Absolutely.
Yes, yes.
It little. It needs to be updated a little bit, just because the language has, has,
you know it keeps evolving, but that's a great one
just to understand, just indigenous protocol, culture, and how to approach editing works by Indigenous authors and subject matter.
I would also recommend reading the biography of Maxwell Perkins.
So Max, I can't remember who wrote it, but it's very old, but Maxwell Perkins is the legendary editor of Scribner who discovered Hemingway and Fitzgerald, and I think what's nice about it is you read about this person's life.
Hmm.
But they exert some of his letters. His editorial letters to the writers, and, and they're so beautifully constructed that I found that to be very inspiring
when I was starting out, and then I would also recommend reading books by writers, because ultimately you have to speak their language.
Yeah.
So it's, it's, and one of the best ones is Stephen King's On Writing, because the first half of it is sort of a memoir, and then the second half of it actually just breaks down the mechanics of storytelling,
so conflict, plot, turning point, foreshadowing. So this is like, oh, the language that you need, and the toolkit that you need, that is very useful when you're communicating with writers.
And again, it's their language that you've got to, that you've got to use.
So, Nope, that's helpful.
That's a great one. Yeah.
Those are great. No, those are great.
Okay, do you guys have any parting words for, for these wonderful people?
Yeah.
Thank you all so much for your questions. I'm so sorry.
Hi! Yeah!
I, I wish that we had a few more hours to go through all of this. Like, I hope this was helpful.
I think, you know, I think it's really, it's really important to remember that there are so many different avenues when it comes to publishing.
And you know there is a lot of value in finding ways to just connect with the book, no matter what, be that through a literary agent, you know, getting a job as a rights assistant or as a bookseller, and I think that you know we have very specific paths, that both involve U of T
and TMU, but you know your past doesn't have to look like that, and who you are, and your identity is super important and lean into that.
You know, there's a lot of value in your different worldview and your different experience in, in this, in this place. So lean into that.
I think it's really, really, really important. We need editors that are all different and have different perspectives and ideas.
And opinions.
Completely agree, yeah, I mean, there are so many. I think we, we always underestimate even how many people touch a book during its you know, from, from the very beginning to, to publication
and even post publication. So, yeah, if, if you have any interest in books and, and it's not editorial-focused, there are,
there are so many ways you could go, and I think just, you know, keep, keep reading and keep, you know.
Yeah.
Keep thinking critically about media and stories, and, and what, how they work, and how, why they don't work.
And I think you know that, that interest and that, yeah,
that it'll, it'll take you, it'll take you a long way
Thank you, Janie
Thank you both so much. I hope that we can meet in person one day.
Thank you, Janie. This is great. I'd love that.
That would be lovely
Yeah, we do not that
It would be so nice, and thank you everybody for for staying with us, and for all of your incredible questions.
I'm sorry we couldn't get to them all, but hopefully, you know, we can,
maybe we can do this again.
Hey! Thank you. Hi!
Absolutely, thank you both. Alright.
Absolutely, thanks everyone. Bye, take care!
Just testing. Can you hear me
Okay.
Just gonna wait a few minutes for everyone to join.
Okay. I think I'm just gonna get started. The last session was so well done.
And I know we have lots to get through. I'm going to start with the land acknowledgement.
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following the conclusion of the session.
Great. So I'm very excited to spend the next 40 minutes or so talking about art and design careers in publishing.
I'm really honoured to have 2 wonderful colleagues join me tonight to share a bit about how they got here to their current roles and what it's like to work in publishing.
So first, I'd love to introduce Zeena Baybayan. Zeena's pronouns are she/her. Zeena is a creative associate at HarperCollins Canada, where she balances both book design and title management.
She has the good fortune of working with many award-winning authors,
illustrators, photographers, and other publishing professionals. When she's not designing books she is probably reading them.
Next, we have Sebastian Frye. Sebastian pronouns are he/him.
Sebastian is a marketing designer at Penguin Random House Canada.
He was the founder of the independent publication studio Swimmers Group, and formally the advertising graphic designer at University of Toronto Press. Sebastian is interested in how books function as art and maintains an artistic practice which includes comics, writing, and music alongside
his work as a designer. And I will introduce myself.
My name is Gigi Lau. My pronouns are she/her.
I'm the art director at the Tundra Book Group, a division of Penguin Random House Canada.
I've been working in publishing and book design for 16 years, and have worked as an art director for the last 10, working with both debut and New York Times
bestselling authors in middle grade, young adult and adult fiction.
I'm passionate about sourcing new talent from traditionally excluded groups and creating standout designs for authentic stories.
Alright, so let's jump in. I'm gonna start with Zeena.
Yes.
How did you start your career in publishing?
My entry into publishing, I think many people would consider the traditional route, that is, when I was in my undergrad,
I did a book practicum, where we created a book from the editing all the way through to the printing over a year, and I thought, this is awesome, and I would love to make a career out of this.
So I went to the Toronto Metropolitan University,
I guess they called it the Ryerson Chang School, and I did a publishing certificate with the intent of going into production.
And then I did, I guess I paid my dues, as most people do, and then I did 2 internships, and I was lucky at the end of my second one to fill a vacancy in the Art Department at HarperCollins Canada.
And what was, what was your undergrad at Ryerson at the time?
It was English and professional writing, with a focus on books.
Oh, interesting!
And what made you interested in production? And then what led you to the designs?
Yeah.
The art. Yeah, I, I don't know. It's not that big of a jump, I guess.
Because the departments do often communicate constantly, right?
They're always quoting schedules and things like that.
But I do really love the drama of production, and I do love the, I guess, being the problem solver.
You know, you're begging favors with the printer, and you're trying to make schedules work.
Well, well, I mean every department has its fair share of drama, but production more so.
I feel like sometimes, and if that interests anyone, there is a production session after this, one want to check that out.
Okay. And how about you, Sebastian? How did you start your career in publishing
Yeah. Thanks, Gigi. Yeah, I started my career in publishing
in a slightly more circuitous route. You know I was always surrounded by books growing up, and, and my family was actually in the publishing adjacent business of book distribution.
So books were always around, including boxes in our garage.
And went to university at the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design.
I studied sculpture, drawing, art history, video, photography, basically anything that I could kind of sink my teeth into artistic related.
And then once I was finished school, I kind of found my way into the printing and publishing side of things via my family, because they were also doing some like media magazines and very small scale stuff, but I was able to early on get some experience doing layout design,
printing. Zeena, I don't remember what you called it, it was a print rat or something?
I, I not not nearly as [inaudible]
But I feel like the archaic term is a printer's double, where you're kind of, where you, they would like
fetch the, the type and stuff. But yeah.
Yes, yeah, yeah. So I got a little bit of taste of that.
And then through that introduction into that world, I also started up my own independent printing and publishing,
basically making art books and poetry. Not, only for myself, but also for, like the the Toronto artistic community.
And that's why I, I kind of linked to my artistic experience with my book experience and combine those 2.
And then once I, I felt that, you know, I had enough experience with that I, I joined the University of Toronto Press and, as their Advertising and Graphic Design Coordinator. And did that for 4 years, and then joined Penguin Random House as the Marketing
Designer just earlier this year, in September, or last, end of last year, September.
Great, Sebastian. Yeah, I think I have a similar,
I think, roundabout journey, I guess, getting into publishing as well.
I, I started as I, I did a design degree at, in Toronto, at York, Sheridan. York University, Sheridan College, and after 4 years there, I wanted to stay in Toronto.
I'm originally from Vancouver. So, looking for a design job in Toronto, and I landed in signage design and wayfinding which is a lot different from publishing. Larger scale, physically larger scale, very complex, but lots of very great experience, but definitely not what my strengths were or my
interests and passions. I loved print design. I loved editorial as well.
So shortly after that, I kind of moved around looking for my next spot.
I did a stint in advertising for a short bit and smaller design studios.
So, you know, during this time, when I'm looking for a, a new design job also signed up with an agency called Creative Niche.
They are a creative placement agency that helps place creative talent in. in companies.
And so they actually help set me up with an interview at Harlequin,
the publisher based in Toronto. And that's how I got my first job in publishing was with Harlequin over 16 years ago, and I started there as a designer designing book covers, and after about 6 years promoted to Art Director and worked there for, for many years working
through all the different imprints there. And then, similarly to Sebastian, just recently moved, took the move to Penguin Random House.
I started there in September, as well. So that's how I'll end it
there. Let's talk about our current job titles and and what it entails and, and perhaps this, like a typical day at work.
Sebastian, do you want to start with that?
Sure thing. Yeah, I would love to. So my, my current job title is Marketing Designer,
as I mentioned at Penguin Random House. I am part of a team of 5
designers, and we also have a, sort of, design coordinator.
I'm, I'm blanking on her exact title, but she's, she's,
she coordinates all the tasks for us, and is kind of the in between.
the, the, the marketing side and the design side. And what I do is, the marketing team at large will determine how to advertise a book, or the sort of, maybe social media strategy that they want to in employ for a specific title, and then they will determine what
assets they'll need for that task, and then I and my colleagues will set about on our journey to deliver the assets that they need for those particular purposes.
So my every day workflow kind of begins with looking at Asana, which we use to organize all our tasks and sort of map out the the whole layout of what the, the marketing needs are. I'll have my little portion fror myself with my list of,
of jobs for the day and for the week, and then I'll determine,
you know, where I have to spend my time and prioritize whether there's something that's gonna take me a long,
excuse me, much, much longer amount of time, or something that I can do very quickly, and then I'll organize that
usually on paper. Got my notebook here. And then I'll open Photoshop or Illustrate, or whatever other programs I'll need and, and start to work.
I think that's pretty much it. Yeah.
Sorry to jump in. So when you mentioned assets, so for those of us out there not familiar with that term, what does, what does that exactly entail?
Yeah. Great question, Gigi. The assets are the, they're also called deliverables, in in, in, in design, they are the sort of the, the, the objects or the things in which you will be giving to your client or to the, in this case, the the marketing team, so that
they can then take that and put it onto Instagram, or or put it on to Google ads.
An asset is basically any design object. It's anything that is made.
And so the assets in, in my case are .jpgs or .gifs, or little videos.
So it'll, it's, it's always taking the form of graphics in my case.
But assets could really mean any kind of designed thing, any kind of designed object.
So it could be ads or bookmarks, or, in it. Yeah.
Yeah, sometimes I get to do more creative, cool things like bookmarks or things that will be physically produced.
Hmm.
But a lot of the time, it's digital .jpgs and, a lot of .jpgs.
And how about you, Zeena? You work with .jpgs sometimes?
I wish. My day-to-day duties can range, depending on what day it is of the week.
There's some days where I go to Pub Ward, which is the big meeting
where all the heads of departments meet, and then discuss acquisitions, or they discuss covers, and then we get feedback from them.
But usually the day starts with Pub Ward. If my supervisor, the creative director, is absent, often I will go and take notes and then distill that and give it to the designers.
And some days, if I get a cover brief, I will sit down with the editor and to the creative director, sort of hash out a plan for how we want to attack this cover,
I guess I'll say. And a good portion of my day is spent
my head down, work, designing typesetting, maybe agonizing over design a bit.
But it's all part of the process, I guess.
Yes.
So your title is creative associate. Is that right? Yeah.
So that covers what you talked about, your day-to-day.
But also, what else do you mention about title management, or that kind of responsibility?
Yes. Yeah. So part of my job, I guess, is, I guess some people will consider a bit of a production job, in that I'm coordinating schedules with printers,
correction department, and other global co-publishers for what we call our co-publish titles, that are titles which we buy rights for obviously in Canada,
for us here, and usually we're negotiating file fee prices, not as exciting as the design stuff.
But yeah, a part of my job does involve title management and keeping on track of titles that we don't originate here in Canada.
And how big is your team? Who else is in your creative department?
The team of 3. It's me and a senior designer and our creative director.
So it's super small team. And we are working like mice all the time, running around.
Yeah.
Well, my team is also a team of 3. I am the art director and then we also have a senior designer and a designer.
And as art director. In my role, I, I see myself as like a shepherd, shepherd.
I help guide the art vision of the book from concept to final execution, like right from the start.
It's finding the right artist or designer to work on the project with me, or I will do the design and also work with editors very closely to make sure we're capturing the essence of the author's goals as well as as a team you know, we're all aligned
with the objectives. So I'm guiding, you know this book baby off from conception to final, to all the different processes and all the different feedback cycles from like various stakeholders like sales, and marketing.
So there's a lot of collaboration, collaboration and meetings and communications.
I also work with, close with, production to make sure, you know, we're, we're sending out quality files and, and getting all those, hitting all the right guidelines.
And then, yeah, doing some designing on top of all. I wanted to ask,
I'm curious about what positions you had before coming to publishing, and like what those experiences or skill sets were like to, if they were like transferable to your current role now.
I think Sebastian, if you could speak to that?
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So the the skills that were transferable from my,
from my experience, both as someone who kind of as a, a lifelong interest in art and design, and also my experience within the publishing industry itself,
whether that's as the printer's double, or as, as a book designer, or as a, even the more administrative side of things.
I think what connects all of these is the art of communication, and the importance of communicating in a way that not only conveys your own ideas and ideas in which you want to, that are meaningful to you, and that are important to you, but also in a way that someone else can
hear it, and someone else can see your vision, or, or in this case, maybe hear your vision.
Communication is the thing that we do not only as part of our job, but it's as part of our,
the process of our job as, as Gigi was mentioning, collaboration is so important as a designer and as an artist and as someone who's in, in a creative field, that it, communicating is by far the the, the biggest lesson that you will learn as you progress through your
career, and including the failures of what you communicate, or how difficult it might be to communicate
sometimes. And yeah, I think that, that is, is the thing it's, it's not necessarily,
it is a tangible thing. It is something that you learn physically, but it's also a much more broader, abstract idea of communication in general, and, and how you can refine your, the art of communicating with every, with every design you do and with every piece of feedback you get.
It's great. Thank you, Sebastian. I, I think I want to add to that. Like I also, from my previous roles in designing with, in other studio environments, like the, the skill of collaboration and communication, is still important.
I think you know, even though my first few jobs weren't like where I ideally wanted to be,
but learning to collaborate with like architects and landscape architects,
and my first job in this signage design company, and I had to like, speak technical terms and learn how to talk with different ways, different people, with, with different objectives and purposes, and like and with fabricators.
It's. It's just interesting how I think those skills I've, I've accumulated have really helped me where I am now
when you, you know, get to speak to all these different departments, and within publishing, and how to work together as a team.
So that is a really important skill, the communication aspects.
Zeena, I also wanted to ask you, you mentioned about the publishing certificate program in the past.
Did you find that prepared you, or gave you any extra help in getting into publishing?
I think at the time having the publishing certificate certainly had gave you some currency here on your resume, though I find that now people are, or are these people hiring for junior and internship positions
don't necessarily look for that anymore. I think we, as an industry, have all agreed to sort of look further past the scope of just who has gone to the TMU or Humber for the publishing programs.
Certainly it'll help if you have the means and the time, because you do learn about the industry, in very broad strokes.
If you're not entirely certain about which department you wanna go into, it's great for that because
you get to sample all the different ones and get to make connections with all the professors.
But for me it was helpful in sort of making that leap from school to internship, because I know that's a very difficult thing to do, and sometimes it can be the highest
barrier for entering into publishing so certainly, if you have the the means, I know that it's quite pricey on top of, say, going to university and then doing certificate program.
But yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting to hear, like, I do notice a lot of, from my experience, like working with other colleagues in art and design, so many of us come from so many different backgrounds of education or studies like some people in fashion or psychology or like you from English majors yeah, yeah.
It's, it's really great. It's, I think, all the varied experiences helps you make it, be a better designer.
So, and, Zeena, how did you find your progression from being a production intern to your, and then all, all the way to your current role as creative associate?
Did you get much support internally with your development, or,
or was it more self guided? Or how, how did it come about?
I was lucky in that my supervisor, the creative director, was very supportive of
my transition into art, graphic design was something I had done all through high school and university as like a sort of side hobby.
But I, I guess, one day I said, Hey, I'd like to take a stab at more design work, and my supervisor said, Sure, so part of it is self motivated.
And it was something that I pursued, but I also did get support directly from HarperCollins.
They were able to pay for some classes that I took at OCAD because I hadn't,
I didn't have an art theory foundation, right? This is again something I did as a hobby, and was lucky enough to convince someone to hire me and pay me for.
But yeah, I did get a lot of internal support and I know a lot of companies do provide certain amounts for professional development.
So, yeah, I, I, I think that there are structures in place in certain companies to make transitions to,
I guess, different departments, if you are willing to pursue it.
That's great. And Sebastian, I know you've, you've worked in the past at the University of Toronto Press, and so I'm curious to know what's different working in academic publishing versus where you, you are now in trade publishing?
Yeah. The, the largest difference between trade publishing and academic publishing,
I found, is the overall size of the operation,
I would say. The, and in particular, for, for me, my role as the advertising graphic designer implied
the wearing of many hats, and so I,
because the team is, is much smaller, and the rules are more permeable,
different team members will step in to different roles as the need arises.
Early on in my tenure as the advertising graphic designer,
I was also the Reviews Coordinator. So you know, I had this experience where I was doing something that was completely different from, from advertising or graphic design, but kind of contributed to not only the the, the, the team and and what we had to do as a, as a marketing
department, but also to my skill, set my understanding of the books.
I had a knowledge of, you know, the, the copy when it came to advertising I could,
I had read all these reviews, and so I kinda knew it,
these are the good bits. So everything little bit kind of contributed to the stew of the work that I was doing, and then, as, as needs changed, that role, shifted to somebody else, and so was
very fluid in terms of the different responsibilities we had, and, and that was because of the nature of the academic publishing industry.
It doesn't have the same kind of demands on it that, that trade publishing does.
And then the overall size of the various academic publishing businesses, imprints, operations, vary in size considerably, and even though University of Toronto Press is one of the largest North American academic publishers, it still was significantly smaller than Penguin Random House which
is one of the 5 biggest publishers in the world.
So, yeah, that's I think that that is the thing that has changed, changed the most, and it's the most different is, is the amount of hats
I wear. And now I just wear a normal hat just, just one.
It's nice to, and you have a team to kind of bounce ideas off, and which is great
We're all we're all under one big hat
actually, yeah.
So in all our roles, as creatives, we deal with like critical feedback from team members and managers, authors about our book cover designs or about our ads, or marketing collateral like, do you find you were prepared to deal with this before coming to your role?
Or do you feel like they were just growing pains that you dealt with
and now you just grin and bear it?
Zeena, you can go ahead.
I like that we're all eager to answer this question, but I think for me I was somewhat prepared, knowing and seeing firsthand what my supervisor went through at Pub Ward as an intern. What I like to keep, I guess, top of mind is that all departments
are in service to the book and we're all trying to make it the best it can be, and every department contributes and adds value to this book.
And this is how we, as creatives, are able to do it.
And so I try to keep that at the forefront of my mind.
You know, we all have one goal. So you don't take feedback personally, right? Again we're all in service to the narrative and the book and the author. Right?
Yeah.
Yeah, I would just echo that, that it's, I,
I, I did feel moving into the position that I currently have prepared for it, just from my, my own work experience.
But the, the, the most important thing I think you know, mentioned and hit the nail on the head, is that the, the work that we do is
contributing to a larger goal, and that feeling of knowing that feedback is there
to strengthen the work or to provide direction that is going to help the the book
and its whole life cycle is important to remember and, and not to get caught up in the nitty gritty of the back and forth, or the feedback cycle, because that's all part of the work, and it, it is only there to contribute to the the overall health and the
holistic swing of the, you know, design process.
These are great responses. I, I don't have anything else to add.
That's great. You guys both, so professional. So actually, I'm gonna start getting to some of these questions, there are quite a few coming in
so that's great. Thank you for submitting into the Q&A.
So someone's asking, any advice for someone making a switch in careers to art and design and publishing, currently no background in publishing,
but I am in school for graphic design, with the intention of creating beautiful covers for living.
So what advice can we give this person?
Zeena, did you? Wanna?
Yeah.
You're well suited. Yes.
Field this? Yeah, I feel like, maybe perhaps I'm, I can relate, can super sympathize.
Advice, for transitioning, I would say that what helped me most was, I guess, just getting a portfolio ready and online.
I know that a lot of people now will have accounts dedicated specifically to like,
redesigning their favorite covers, right? And showing their style and their taste that way.
And I know, Gigi, you are always scrolling Instagram trying to find
freelancers and illustrators to collaborate with,
so I think just getting your work out there, even if it's not official,
but cover work, but like your own reimaginings, is super helpful.
Attending sessions like these, I guess, making connections that way,
is also helpful to get, like to be informed.
I think it's quite difficult to break in to the industry.
Traditionally, I guess, just like no one's cold calling anymore, saying, Hey, can you hire me for jobs?
So I think the best tools you have are advertising yourself online,
I guess I would say. Gigi, I don't know. Yeah?
Yeah, I agree, I think I'm making mockup book covers, like, you know, you might not have a real client.
But you know redesigning your favorite book to with your own design, or several different explorations of designs, and having that in your portfolio is great, I think I love seeing how, seeing how the designers design thinking and so even your process, and your sketches like having one project with in
your portfolio that, that kind of walks you through, walks the viewer through like how you arrived at the solution.
All the different color palettes you've tried, or why you decided to use the typeface versus
maybe a handlettered version, stuff like that, I think, helps make you more distinct,
I think.
Another question, what are your favorite book cover trends, or least favorite?
Sebastian, do you want to? Start out?
Or do?
I have my favorite, I, I don't. I don't know.
Sometimes I don't like saying, like, trends like, you know, but I do.
I think just representation on covers right now. Not right now, over the last 10 years have, have, has been a lot better.
So that's what I'm, I'm pumped about, is seeing that.
And, and seeing, not being scared to show, show that on a cover.
Because I think when I first started in, in book design, they didn't want to see different faces on the cover.
They just wanted to see the back of someone far, far away and very tiny, even though they were like Black or Chinese, or something.
So, so now it's like, I'm glad to see that on, on front and center now.
Me too. I my! I, I won't say that I would like the seeing someone from like the peripheral, or like the back view of someone, but I think a lot of people are now recognizing that, that trend.
Yeah. You know, we don't like saying trend, but that, that is perhaps on its way out, or it's outlived.
You know, its life cycle, but one trend that I like right
now, I like the wacky type. I think a lot of people are getting into like the eighties type, or even like paintings close, close cropped paintings that are super clever.
Sebastian, I feel like you might have.
Honestly, there is, well, those are 2 really great call-outs I've noticed those, especially the wacky type like that's just,
it's people are, are getting really, the bravado with which people are, you know, using typography is very cool.
There's so many book covers. There's so many things that people are trying.
Designers are doing. And there's so much experimentation.
And even the stuff that is now solidified as sort of like standard effort
design is, is really adventurous and, and creative. I think that pulling out just a couple trends I, I don't even know if I would do service to the amount of stuff that's out there.
So I, the only thing I can think of might be the inferred design, or like interpretive design, where designers are taking the literal route to illustrate the book or the subject or the content of, of the book,
but are being adventurous, and allowing the reader to, have an interpretive opening in which they can see themselves, and kind of become curious about the book, even before they read the first page. That to me is, seems to be a big step in terms of cover design where cover designers are given more
creative agency to create interpretations and not just be window addressing, but to actually be a compliment to the book itself.
Great answers, everyone. So I'm just gonna go through,
what else? So a lot of questions. Is a publishing program or a graphic design program more helpful for getting into art and design?
I, I, I don't know. I guess that's aimed towards me.
Graphic design program. I think, for me personally it helped because I again, I didn't have the sort of art theory background and if you're speaking in terms of just specifically on your resume, I think, I think, of course, it, it looks nice right the, the publishing
certificate specifically, was what a lot of hiring managers were looking at.
But we do now, I think, have virtual internships where some of these, I guess the issue with attending some of these publishing programs is that you're not located in Toronto, right?
Not everyone can afford to live in Toronto and some of these virtual classes get canceled because attendance is a low, so it's kind of difficult to even, to get into these programs.
But we now, I know we at HarperCollins have a virtual internship
that cycles through every 6 months, and I think we have people completing these internships from like Edmonton.
We're based in, sorry, our, I should say HarperCollins, is based in Toronto.
But these internships are more of a deep dive rather than an actual, traditional
you show up, you come do the work. Like you get to speak with the publisher, and I think we're moving more towards not looking at
resumes like looking through resumes to find the certificate programs.
But if I think you find it helpful personally, you want to learn any of it means,
it could be helpful. But again, if you want to get into art and design, I think the portfolio aspect of it is especially helpful
Yeah, I think there's a few other questions come out in the Q&A.
And I think hopefully about like, is it resumes, is it experiences that stand out and resumes or internships?
Or but I think portfolio is really key, so it doesn't matter,
I think, what education background you came from, or if you were a self-taught designer, if, if your, your portfolio shows that you know you understand visual language and hierarchy of type and all those essential elements to create great design and that's key.
One piece of feedback I got when I was, you know, hawking my portfolio around to various publishers and design agencies was to,
was to emphasize curiosity when it came to showing your work.
You know, if you just do one thing, or you know you stick to kind of, if you set rules for yourself, and you stick to those rules, you may not show the curiosity which you have within you in your portfolio so to find ways in which that curiosity, can come out whether
that's by, you know, showing iterative design, so the various iterations of the work that you do, the maybe, some of the, not necessarily the whole process, but just how you got to where you ended up and to show maybe different applications for the work that you do. If you want to be
A, a cover designer, that is a very narrow set of the graphic and art design industry.
So you don't want to just show cover designs.
Maybe you want to show other work that you've done.
Whether it's even, even if it's just photoshopping posters on a like, on like a billboard, or something like that, just to show that you're kind of like finding ways in which the, your visual language can enter into the world as Gigi mentioned.
Yeah, that's great advice. I think also, as you're working on a portfolio, making sure that everything in there is something you're proud of, and you're passionate about, because it comes, if you're talking in an interview or showing your work, it comes across, and you can, it comes across, your passion
comes across when it's something you really enjoyed or loved, or proud of.
So I think that also comes in play some of the questions coming to us are asking about, how do we select a designer, or illustrator, or an artist to work on a cover?
And it's like Sebastian mentioned about, you know, in your portfolio, as you're, you're doing work that you like could be for album covers or not
just book covers. Could be, you know, your own Zine, or, or your own graphic novel, showing that passion.
And then when we're looking for the right fit for a picture book, or for a middle grade book, we're looking through, through artists portfolios and seeing, maybe it's a similar style of art that we're looking for
in, in your art, or it could be like oh, it's you know,
you might not have done a graphic novel or a, a picture book, but we see maybe examples from your animation work like we,
you know, there's animators that could do picture books, and you know there's a lot of like flexibility in terms of in the art and design world where, you know, I think creatives can work across different fields, if that makes sense.
Yeah, we're all, we're all, we're all creatively adventurous and trying new things.
And, and so to, to show that, to convey that, and maybe you'll find your niche, and you'll just, that's where you'll, you'll stay and that's where you'll live for the rest of your career,
but more often than not there will be lots of bleed into other avenues for your creativity to flow, and to be very happy to let yourself go there.
And yeah, like, I mentioned being curious about those things, will, will pay off.
I'm trying to see what other last questions we could
answer.
What is the process of working with illustrators? I think, so,
once we find an artist we want to work with, we negotiate our fees, or share our budgets and do a, a project
brief, send timeline deliverables like when, when the first round of sketches, and then I'll share those sketches within our team.
Get, bring back feedback. Do that maybe a couple more times before you do like a color rough, and then down to the final, and then down to final, final arts.
That's a very, very short, quick answer for a long, long process.
But that's, that's how we work with outside artists. Yeah.
I don't know, Zeena, do you have anything to add
there?
No, that was perfect. Sometimes it's one round, everyone loves it.
Sometimes it's 5. And that's okay.
Yes.
Yeah. It's the journey. So one last, I think we're running out of time.
So I just wanted to say, was there one thing you want to share with the group?
About, one thing you wish you knew when you first started your career in publishing?
Sebastian, do you want to start with that?
Sure. Yeah, the thing that they came to mind thinking about this question was that publishing is not just about books.
Publishing is so many different things. It's a massive, interconnected system of people moving ideas around the world, and if you start in one place in publishing, you can end up in another one unless you're an accountant in which case that's it, I'm just kidding, but if you, maybe you're
an accountant and you have a, you know, graphic design hobby, and then you, you know the, the editor sees your doodles, and it's like that's really great, you know.
It's this huge web of, of opportunities. And it's not just books and book covers and authors.
It's production and distribution and human resources. And you name it.
It's, it's a huge, huge basket of, of opportunities.
That's great. Zeena, what's one thing you wish you knew when you first started your career?
There are many things, but I would say that I wish that I had perhaps known to, how to advocate for myself.
It's a good skill to have when you're negotiating salary, when you're negotiating promotions, and also when you're at Pub Ward, and you really want to present a vision with passion and convince others in the room, I think it's a, it's a
good skill to have all around in any industry.
That's such a good good one, Zeena, and I think that's something that took me a long time to develop.
So, yeah, this wish I if you knew that first thing that, that'd be great, I think one thing I wish I knew was I didn't know this would be such a, I was surprised at how much I loved being in publishing.
I didn't think I would end up being here so long.
Okay.
So it's. It's a great, a great thing, I think, but I think I, just everyone that I've met along my journey has, has also, I found, stayed in publishing for a very, very long time, and cause it's such a great industry and, and people are so collaborative.
And, and, as we all mentioned early in our conversations, we all want the end goal of, of creating this amazing book.
Amazing package. So I, I, I was just surprised that, surprised myself,
I think, in my journey. So wow. I want to thank everyone, and I want to
thank Zeena and Sebastian so much for joining me tonight, for this wonderful conversation, and to all your attendees for your time tonight.
There is a 10 min break before our next panel session on Production, so as a reminder, please go to pubcouncil.ca
for more information, and this session is recorded and will be accessed there later.
Thank you. Everyone. Good night.
Hi, everyone.
Before we begin our Production session this evening, I wanted to begin with a land acknowledgement and webinar etiquette.
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Transcription. A transcript of this webinar will also be available in the days following the conclusion of the session.
So thank you very much for attending the CPC Doors
Open Production session, we're hoping that you'll learn some insight into what the role of production can look like in a publishing house, and we, of course, welcome any questions at the end of the session.
My name is Christie Hanson. My pronouns are she/her.
I am the senior production manager at Penguin Random House Canada.
I currently handle production of one color novels, 4 color picture books, adult and children titles, originating works and co-publications with other publishing houses and everything in between.
I have a bachelor's degree in communications from Wilfrid Laurier University.
I have a postgrad certificate from Centennial College for book and magazine publishing.
While at school I worked at part time as in an insurance company in the IT department, as a business analyst where much of my day was spent in spreadsheets and HTML
coding. I did a 6 week internship at the University of Toronto Press in the scholarly publishing division, and was then hired on as a production coordinator at UTP, and after a year I made the move into trade publishing at what was then Random House Canada. And joining me on
the panel tonight is the wonderful Dori.
Hi! There! Excuse me. My name is Dori Antel, and I am the Direct Print Production
Lead at Scholastic Canada, and just the terminology,
Direct print at Scholastic refers to any sold items, so primarily books, be them French, English, or educational material.
We also have an indirect side in production which is unsold material.
So catalogs and flyers, which I'm sure many of you have
seen over the years. They're still around. And in my specific day-to-day role, I coordinate the production of the French titles, both novels and picture books.
I have a bachelor's degree in English literature from Carleton University, and I also completed the postgrad
Book and Magazine publishing program at Centennial.
Yes.
Quite a few years before Christie, but I was there, and after completing that, or towards the end of that, I did a 6 week internship at Second Story Press, which is a small Toronto publishing house.
From there I went into the editorial department at Harlequin Enterprises, and I worked there as a proofreader for several years, and then made a bit of a switch and joined the Ministry of Education
at an agency called EQAO, where I was part of the print production team working on the provincial testing, and then, after a few years there, I returned to book publishing.
When I was hired by Scholastic Canada for a mat leave contract, and I was a print production specialist at the time.
And it did eventually turn into a full time position. So that happens a lot. It's a common story where a temporary or part time or a contract position does lead to something else down the road.
Thank you, Dori. I think we'll start with basics.
Dori, can you please provide us with a broad overview of what the role of production is.
Sure. So the nutshell of production, I would say, is that it's a project management role which basically guides the process of turning raw text and images into a final printed product.
And so some of the common steps along the way would be requesting quotes from printers, scheduling and tracking jobs as they're in progress, coordinating projects, usually many at the same time as they move from one stage to the next.
So, for instance, moving from editorial through to design, and then checking and double checking print specifications.
For example, the trim size of a book, the page count, whether it's hard cover or soft cover, that kind of thing, and then wrapping it up by sending files to print and receiving and checking proofs, and then eventually advanced copies of the books.
Perfect. Thank you. So there are many different skills and experiences that transfer well into a production role.
When you're in production, you are a taskmaster.
You are a scheduler. You are someone who loves to work with a budget, and someone who sees both the big picture and the small details that go into any project.
And you love cats. Well, you don't have to love cats.
He wasn't supposed to be here.
So are you right for production?
Do you make lists? Do you do budgets and schedules for fun?
Do you enjoy project management, then this might be the right job for you.
You have to have a good ability to multitask and juggle a large amount of projects.
For example, I'll go to from answering a pressing question from a print partner to sending a meme to a colleague about a deadline to reviewing printed sample material and under a minute flat. A sense of humor is an absolute must. Professionalism and positivity
go a long way, a willingness to collaborate and problem-solve and strong relationship management skills.
There are also quite a few technical aspects to the job.
So familiarity with the Adobe Suite in particular, In Design and Acrobat are needed on a daily basis.
Working knowledge of Photoshop and Illustrator.
Great familiarity with Excel and Word, a basic understanding of offset and digital printing, or a willingness to learn and then same with database management applications, either you've used them or you're willing to learn about them.
So there are many job opportunities that are in and associated with the production department.
Dori, can you elaborate on what some of those might be?
Yeah, so speaking at Scholastic, aside from the hands on production roles, and there are a few of us that do work with the hands on production.
One of the other teams that we're closely associated with would be our supply chain team.
And what they do is they will review our sales data and adjust forecasts for all titles.
They will review our emails, our profit and loss statements to ensure that our financial targets are met, and they also will track delivery status of our books and we'll communicate any delays which do happen quite regularly to the proper departments.
They also ensure that we have sufficient stock on hand to meet our orders, and also have to keep an eye at the same time to make sure that our quantities don't exceed demand in order to limit our excess inventory.
Another team, that production works with very closely would be our digital archives, and they manage our company wide digital assets.
They maintain the archival library, including book files, marketing materials, and catalogs.
They help us prepare book files to send to print, and they collect post-production book files for our archiving.
They also manage fonts and stock image requests and licensing.
Perfect, so at Penguin Random House Canada, we're a larger company, and while in smaller companies one person may wear many hats, at Penguin Random House Canada, we tend to have more defined roles.
So another role that works in and around the production department is inventory management, which is very similar to the supply chain role that Dory mentioned.
They're responsible for monitoring inventory levels on all of our titles.
They order reprints to either anticipate orders, or fill orders, and they ensure stock levels are maintained.
We also have warehouses, quite a few, and the warehouse team has everything to do with the physical copies of the book.
So they're ensuring that book cartons are up to spec, meaning that the carton sizes that hold the books are correct, that cartons meet the minimum shipping requirements, which is a crash load and box filler.
They ship out orders to ensure even lay down on all new titles, which means that if the warehouse is centralized in one place, it may take 10 days to ship across the country to hit Victoria, but it may take 7 days to ship across the country to hit Manitoba so
they make sure to manage all those shipping timelines to make sure that all the books get to all the places at about the same time.
They also will do special stickering for carton packs for special customers or special sales.
We also have paper department. Our paper department is responsible for negotiating paper rates with paper mills and the transportation of getting the paper rolls from the mills to our printers to make sure that each printer has enough paper to meet demand and we also deal quite a bit with printers.
While they're not in-house, they're definitely one of my main contacts.
I'm talking with them about books just as much as I'm talking about books with our in-house partners.
We have an in-house e-book team who's responsible for ensuring all our e-book formats are created, tested, and sent out to vendors to match the print title to make sure everything's on sale at the same time, and we also have in-house typesetting
and design teams. These teams work very closely with us on page designs, jacket layouts, and full text files.
So production works with many different departments. But there are some departments we're in more constant contact with.
So, Dori, if you wouldn't mind talking about some of those.
Yeah. Well, let me speak to one of the departments that we work very closely with, which would be our and design.
We, production, ensures that our designers always have the correct specs on hand when beginning a project.
So again trim size, page counts, formats any special cover treatments, and also that they have any files that they need if they're getting files from,
in the case of let's say co-publications, from an outside publisher that they have the art files
they need. They also need their text documents to bring into the layout.
So we make sure they have all the tools and files and resources they need to start a project.
And then, once things are underway, we keep in regular communication with them, to make sure that things are on track in order to meet our schedules, and at the same time production is usually or often, the bridge between design and editorial.
So it's really, it's constant communication, really, between those 3 departments, mainly to make sure that everything is on track and running
smoothly.
I also work very closely with the Art and Design department.
The book design department and production team work in tandem
essentially. Production will recommend jacket finishes based on where books are printing. Will clear art usage based on the covers that our designers create.
And we do fought file quality assurance together. We'll work through complicated files and technical issues to resolve any errors before sending any print-ready files to the printer.
We also deal with editorial. So interactions with our editorial team begin about when a list is finalized for a season.
At this point we work together to draft a schedule to keep the books on time.
We talk about early specifications, to book the titles in at the correct printers.
Not all printers do all things so it's a bit of a match game to make sure that each printer is getting the appropriate book.
We'll even begin to talk about what the book is gonna look like.
So format, tree paperback versus hard cover. Trim size, which is the physical size of the book.
Page counts. If there's going to be, if it's a hard cover, is it going to be a jacket or printed overboard?
So a printed overboard is just like a printed laminated sheet
that's trimmed and folded over the boards.
So this is a hardcover version
And I happen to have the French paperback version of that very book, so you can see.
We both made Narwhal.
And actually, I'll just, I'll just jump in.
So one other thing working specifically with French books that gets factored in, in, in my communication with editorial is that we do, because most of our French books are adaptations of previously printed English books, we do have to factor in having text translated so that needs to be factored into the
scheduling as well.
For sure. We also talk about any, we communicate in detail about the schedule, and hope to navigate any potential scheduling issues that might come up.
And then I also deal quite a bit with our marketing team and publicity. At Penguin Random House Canada, production controls all of the application files which is the files that generate jackets and interior designs.
So designers from our marketing team come to production actually to check if they can use cover images in their marketing material and marketing campaigns and to confirm when finals, when files are final, so they make sure they're grabbing the most up-to-date files while creating those campaigns.
So, Dori, how have you noticed the publishing landscape change since you first entered in regards to diversity and equitable representation across all publishing positions?
Me too! Yes.
Been in the business for a while, but, but what's great is a couple of years back, Scholastic, established a
DEI Committee. I'm not currently on the committee, so I'm a bit limited in my knowledge of the specifics.
But I can say that Scholastic has many initiatives and strategies in place relating to our products as well as our partnerships and our workplace.
So as employees, I can say that some of our general workplace action initiatives we now have employee resource groups which bring together employees with shared experiences and/or identities, and we also have mandatory DEI training for all new but also existing employees, and
we also have a DEI-specific website, which features our key corporate DEI initiatives and is constantly being updated
and it's something that we all check in on and are updated on regularly.
Perfect, at Penguin and Random House Canada,
we also have DEI committees, but I'm also not on them.
So I can't speak to all of the initiatives that they're doing.
But I'm happy to comment on the things that I have seen in the publishing landscape.
One of the things was that there used to be, in jobs, a requirement of a book and magazine post grad certificate.
But that requirement has since been removed. There's a financial barrier to attending book and magazine postgrad programs when in reality all experience is valuable
experience. So if you have any experience and are interested in publishing, that is a huge step in the right direction.
We also, I've noticed the internship program, it has moved from a 3-month unpaid program to a 6-month paid program with an hourly wage.
I believe the hourly wage has increased twice since the inception of the 6-month program.
Job advertisements, they're no longer only being placed on specific job boards or alumni email chains. They're being posted in a wider variety of places to attract a larger audience.
There's also a wider variety of positions available.
The market has changed since I started in the business and positions and even departments exist that never did before.
So Penguin Random House Canada, now has an audio book division.
So we have an in-house audio team with sound engineers and audio producers and directors.
That department didn't exist when I started at Random House.
We have an e-book team, which is part of the production department.
But when I started, ebooks were more of an afterthought, or they came out after the print edition.
But now they're thought about well in advance to ensure that ebook editions are available at the same time as print, and we sometimes will have an e-book only title, so you can only get it as an e-book.
We have a publishing operations team which we always had, but now it is more robust.
It includes data scientists to help analyze market trends and create new initiatives and campaigns based on data and of course, there's more diversity.
So we have new authors. We have new editors.
We have new publishers that are offering more diverse titles.
And there's also new initial, initiatives, sorry, to revitalize existing programs at Penguin Random House Canada, and then charitable giving. PRHC
always matched any employee charity donations, but they recently took away the requirement that that charity have a registered charity number, so they'll still match any kind of charitable donation
you wanna make. And they've been more forward with reminding us to take sick days and mental health days as needed. And we're also given 2 volunteer days a year.
But I can only speak to Penguin Random House Canada.
I've been here a while. So that brings us to the end of the informational portion of the presentation, and I see that there are a few questions in the Q&A
box. So one person, this looks like a question for you, Dori.
At the end of my, this person's asking, they're at the end of a poli sci degree, and are interested in publishing, but also government. Hearing Dori's career path is so refreshing.
How was the transition from publishing to provincial and back?
It's very different environments. I will say that.
To speak honestly, what I missed when I was working in government agency was the creativity and the leeway.
It was quite a bit more structured, which does, you know, that does speak to a large chunk of my brain.
I do like structure and kind of the rigidity of that.
But
book publishing, and specifically Scholastic and children's publishing where I am, does a little for more creativity and more collaboration.
I think you know there was certainly strict guidelines in place, but not to the same extent, and you're not answering.
as formally as you would be with government regulations and mandates.
So it's, it's a bit
I guess, I, yeah, I guess flexible is, is the word.
But, a bit, you have a bit more leeway. But that said, I did enjoy working at the government, and it was it was kind of neat, because within this agency of the Ministry of Education,
it was a small print production department. So there was that little burst of creativity there that was kind of outside the box of what everyone else at the office was doing.
So I did enjoy both experiences, just very different.
Perfect. Thank you. We have. I'm currently a production manager at a newspaper and the daily routine see, seems quite similar.
What is the best way to get started in the publishing industry?
Do you? I? I have some ideas.
Got it, jump in.
Okay, so, yes, I mean, we've definitely interviewed people that have worked in production at newspapers.
So it's, there's a very similar workflow, for sure.
I would imagine a newspaper is just a compressed timeline.
You're doing the same things, but either daily or weekly or monthly, whatever your circulation is of the newspaper. The best way to get started in the publishing industry, Dori kind of leaned to it.
You have to be, you might have to take a job where it is a contract or a temporary position, or an internship where you're getting your foot in the door.
You're taking an opportunity, and you never know what could come of it.
Yeah, and I do. I do imagine that the skills that you must use on a daily basis at a newspaper are very transferable to working in,
in publishing. It's, it's a different product,
but the general steps, a lot of them would be very similar, and I mean clearly, I would imagine you're used to tight timelines and thinking on your feet when things don't go as planned and working against the clock.
So I, I think you know, in, in looking at a resume that a lot of your skills would be key components of what someone in production at a publishing house would be looking for.
Agreed, for sure.
Someone else is saying, I've seen a lot of internships in editorial and design, but not so much in production.
What path do you think is possible to follow in order to get into publishing directly into the production aspect?
That's a good question, you know. I, I have to say, thinking back,
I don't know if we've had any specific production
interns at Scholastic. I don't know if you have.
Yeah, we do have production interns. But when I did my internship at UTP, it was actually production, slash editorial.
They, so I think sometimes they might be grouped with another department which might speak to the size of the publishing house.
That's a good point, I would imagine, especially like well, I mean, you are not a small publishing house, but the smaller ones.
Yeah.
I think you probably do wear many hats, and an internship would involve working on things in, in various departments.
Yes, I think so too, but also some publishing houses don't have in house production.
Hmm.
My understanding, they might, if they are part of a larger international group, the production may actually rest in the U.S. counterpart.
Oh, here's a question. How do you decide when a book will be a hardcover or a paperback?
My answer is that production doesn't decide. Yeah, it's, it's hugely editorial.
This is true.
Sales will decide, yeah.
Yeah, there's definitely a cost factor involved as well. I mean, hard covers are, are traditionally more expensive to produce in print, than paperback.
But that said, depending on the project, that still might be the route that editorial and design and marketing decides to go.
Yeah, for sure. I think that one's the same question.
Oh, do you need to be bilingual in French and English to work at Scholastic?
You do not. So I. So I.
Technically, I'm bilingual. I've got my little bilingual certificate from my Montreal high school, but I would not
qualify myself as, as fluently bilingual.
It's certainly comes in handy, given that I do work on the, on the French, in the French department.
But it's more a convenience than anything else.
The outside vendors that we work with all of our communication is in English.
It's just the in-house team that the French does come in handy, but it's certainly not a requirement.
Except if you're working in the French department, and we do, and, and we do have some specific roles where they do require like, we have customer service agents that we have but specifically bilingual positions, and we have publishing assistant rules that are specifically bilingual that
they're looking for. But, generally speaking, you do not need French.
What about editorially?
Yeah.
Well, we do have the French division where you do need French, but, we also, for them,
they work so closely with other departments as well. So they are quite bilingual as a whole, and then we do have some jobs that are kind of shared across departments.
So, for instance, a publishing assistant might work with the French team and the English team. And so in that case it would be a specifically bilingual role.
Right? Okay, this is a longer question.
I worked in the production department of a global and print communications company for over 30 years
using Creative Suite and proofreading. I, I would love to round out my working life with something I love, which is books.
I also have experience with archiving and version control of digital assets.
Very important. I'm especially interested in e-books and remote work.
This sounds very timely in in today's working world.
How do I know if my resume is being noticed? Yes, for sure.
Yeah.
So when I'm reviewing resumes, I'm often checking to make sure that the resume has been tailored to the job posting. I find sometimes I'm getting form resumes.
I don't know how that works. I don't know if you can just make a resume, and it lives on LinkedIn or somewhere, and it automatically applies to jobs with certain descriptors, because sometimes I feel like that's what I'm reading.
So I first look to make sure that the person has read the job posting, and that's step one for me.
So that would make me notice a resume. If it looks like they have tailored their resume to, or their cover letter to the job, or at least to the industry.
I don't know about you, Dori. Yeah.
Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I've seen the same thing where, you know, it,
it, it is nice to see a resume where you feel like they actually want to work with you.
And, and at that company and it's not just a generic resume that's being sent your way.
And in, in our job postings, you know, does list a lot of the skills and qualities that we're looking for in applicants.
And so in your resume, that's what needs to be highlighted.
But in, just in, in looking at your questions, I mean, it sounds like you do hit
quite a few key points that would be of interest. So I would say your resume would be noticed.
Right, especially if it said those things. Version control, very important.
What kind of things make a resume stand out for a production internship?
We kind of just spoke to that. For an internship, it's very entry, entry level, like I'm not expecting someone to come to an internship that has 5 years print production experience.
So usually with an internship you're looking for like a keen interest in books and publishing. It's great to know that there's a passion there.
Yeah, at the, if, it would be great if you could speak to that, you know what Creative Suite is.
You don't have to be a guru at it, but knowing how to open In Design, or Photoshop would be great.
Same with Excel. We do a lot of spreadsheets with Excel.
It, again, Excel is a very powerful program.
I'm not a, I'm not a master of Excel by any means.
But I can certainly do some formulas, or, or make a report.
Schedules, lots and lots of schedules.
Schedules. Yeah. All in Excel. This question's for Dori.
I'm curious about your experience printing French titles.
How is the French-English crossover handled in publishing houses?
So with our French titles. So the French titles that I work on,
I mentioned before that they are primarily adaptations of existing English books, so we will obtain the rights, the, usually it's the North American French rights to an English book, and then we are provided with files from that outside publisher. We translate the text.
And then it goes through the same flow as, as a standard English book
would. We also do a handful of new French titles as well
that do not already exist, but they're original French titles. The production process is basically the same.
And I'm just, I'm looking at your question, looking back I'm curious about that
how the industry applies here. So just in reference to that, given current circumstances, we do have quite a few people working remotely or partially remotely, which is actually been really beneficial to our French department, because it opens up our our pool, a bit, especially to Quebec
because you find a lot of French speakers there that do come in handy for our, our French division.
So there's, there's, that has opened up opportunities
there, so. But again, the production process is pretty much the same, with the addition of the rights and and translation. But from there on
in it's, it's the same flow.
I have a question actually about translation. The French tends to be longer, like word count,
than English.
It does. That's an excellent question. Yes, awesome.
Yes.
Oh, interesting!
That just makes me think of one of the challenges that we sometimes encounter with French translation is, if we've acquired the rights to a picture book. Rhyming picture books are always an extra challenge, because what rhymes in English doesn't necessarily rhyme in French so those are a special type of translator that takes on
those rhyming books. But for novels, like straight black and white novels, we do generally allot an extra 20% for the page count increase because it does take more words in French to say what you said in English. With, say graphic novels, or even illustrated
novels where you have to make sure that the text stays with the pictures,
it's a bit trickier. And one of the challenges that we always have are, say, with graphic novels, with speech bubbles because you have to keep the text,
Oh, yeah.
the layout the same, and the spreads the same, so we sometimes will have to make the speech bubbles longer, or larger, so that we can fit in our text.
And then there have been scenarios where I've gone running to the editor, and you have to cut 3 words.
Just 3 little words. Take a few words. You get them to fit.
Yeah.
So it, it's, it does come with some challenges.
But picture books usually are not an issue, because there's not nearly as much text, but novels certainly it does. It is a factor.
Interesting. Can you recommend websites where jobs in production may be posted other than the publisher websites, or where to search for contract and internship opportunities?
So I know we post on Indeed. Is it Indeed? I think it's Indeed!
And LinkedIn, I might be making these up. I'm pretty sure that's where we post.
And also, of course, on our own websites.
I don't know if, I mean, Scholastic,
we post everything on our website as well. I don't know if Quill & Quire still.
Yeah.
There is the Quill & Quire job board. I don't know if all publishers exclusively posts there, but there, there certainly are jobs on the Quill & Quire job board, and I think there's internships on there as well.
When I look online at internships available on Penguin Random House, I don't see any currently available in Canada.
Do you know when the next round of interns are being taken on?
So they do 6 month, interns are hired for 6 months at a time.
We just hired in mid-January, like they all the intern started.
They have the same start date in mid-january, which means they'll be going to mid June.
Is that right? It's my math right? 6 months. So I imagine they start to post a month or so before that.
Looking for the next round, so I would start looking in May.
Do you offer a few available positions for the spring-summer internship?
Dori, do you have many interns?
Not that I'm aware of. Again, we don't have any specifically in our production department.
So I'm not aware of the timing.
So I know my production department right now, has 2 interns.
We have one on our typesetting team and one on the print production team.
So every 6 months we tend to hire 2 in production, but the entire company hires many more than that.
What sort of barriers are there for children's authors that want to write books with flaps,
die cuts, or interactive features?
I'm assuming by flaps, you mean like a gate fold out of the, out of the text as opposed to like a cover with a flap.
Right.
That sounds probably
I'm assuming I was just gonna look to see if I have a, a sample
I have. Yeah, I've done one recently.
A full flaps.
Yeah, we don't. We certainly don't do a lot of them.
I have a book with a die cut.
Okay, yes. So a die cut is when there's a hole in the page.
You can see here, Little Echo, yeah.
Yeah, and here's [inaudible] flap.
Yeah.
Perfect, beautiful. So they're asking about barriers for authors that want to write books with these kind of features.
No, I mean, it might almost be specific to the publisher as well like there
are, so, I usually refer to some, not necessarily gate folds, but the interactive features, and even cutouts,
we kind of call them novelty books, and that's not to belittle them in any way.
It just means they have that kind of extra feature. Oh, excuse the cat, that extra feature to them!
So I don't, Scholastic is, aside from being a publishing house, we also are a major distributor.
So we might acquire rights to distribute books, and we do a lot of novelty books that way within the French production department, and Canadian publishing department.
At Scholastic, we don't do a lot of those for ourselves, so it might.
There are some publishers that do a lot of those type of books.
Because specifically the interactive features, I would say.
I agree, there are like publishers out there that that is their, like.
Yeah.
That is what they do. They specialize in those kinds of features.
We've certainly done, like we have books like that, but they're, they're certainly not the most, one of the top things that we do.
One of the barriers might be that each time you add an interactive feature like that they cost more to produce.
A lot more. Yeah.
Yeah, and depending on the feature, it can be a lot more, or it can be a little more.
Yeah.
I've heard a lot of image illustration.
Heavy books are printed, overseas do either of you work directly with overseas printers?
Was there difficulty doing this during Covid?
So I work with overseas printers on a very regular basis.
Right now, my cat's hitting buttons.
So, I, I'm just thinking, like, specifically, during Covid, actually, of all the communications and relationships that were the least impacted during Covid, I would probably say it was our overseas vendors because we were already working remotely with them.
Right. With them. Yes, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so the only, the only, depending on which printer it is,
there is the time difference change. So it might take an extra day to get a response for them, to get quotes from them, to get schedules from them.
But it's, it's a remarkably smooth process, working with overseas printers.
I would say the difficult, the part about Covid that made things more difficult with the overseas printers was freight. Like shipping, which
I blocked it out
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Oh, yeah. Oh, it it was. Yeah. It was very difficult. It wasn't getting the books printed.
It was getting the books shipped. Bye, yeah, sorry.
Yes.
Getting them here. Yeah. And I mean Christie, I don't know what you were encountering, but like, there were so many delays and you couldn't get your hands on shipping containers. And, I mean, we had half empty boats that, you know, so half our stock didn't ship. We had, we had boats catch on fire.
Overboard.
We had freight go overboard. Like, literally, yeah, that. Okay.
So I take it back. Overseas printing during Covid was not fun.
Yeah.
Yeah, you forget about the freight stuff. But that was not publishing specific.
That was real. Yeah.
That was, that was world-specific. Everyone was having supply chain issues.
Does Scholastic Canada only have internships for students who need credits to graduate?
You know what? I can't say with a 100% certainty.
But I'm going to say no, I mean, I believe our interns are all students, but I don't,
I don't think that's a requirement.
That. Yeah.
It's also not a requirement at. I, I've certainly coached interns that were not in school.
I don't know how.
Oh, some. I don't know how long. There's lots of questions here.
I'm happy to keep going
I'm just kind of scrolling through some of them as well.
So a normal day in production, I think.
We kind, I mean the, the steps that I alluded to earlier within any given day.
You're quoting a new job. You're tracking an existing job.
You're flowing a work in progress between editorial and design.
You, you might be paying an invoice. You might be looking at proofs for color.
Other, other aesthetics. It really, I mean, with what I love about production,
I will say, when I first got into publishing, I just assumed all publishing is editorial.
Of course I'm going to go into editorial, and I tried that.
I started with it. But production. What I love about production is that you do a little.
Oh, no! Another cat! You do a little bit of everything, and you are constantly using both sides of your brain,
I find. So in any given day you're doing a whole range of things. So it's a very difficult job to get bored, because there is very seldom a mundane day.
Agreed.
It's never boring.
Sometimes it's a little too exciting.
Yeah, very exciting. Maybe we'll do one more question, and then, and then we'll sign off.
Okay. This one's a good one. You mentioned Adobe, I mean, they're all good ones,
sorry, but you mentioned Adobe Creative Suite. What sort of tasks would production perform in these programs?
So it, it, it kind of is all over the place for production in, at Penguin Random House Canada. In Design
is one of the main applications that our designers and our typesetters use for creation of application files for exterior files or interior files.
So the, I will often open In Design to help a designer or a typesetter, while usually but type is one color for the most part,
but designers might, they might want my opinion on if, if type is too small, if they've used too many colors to create like text, because often you want your text to be black, so that it's in register,
but if you're adding more color for, well, because you want it to not be black, like, what's the ideal type
size? So you're looking at them for more of a technical perspective as opposed to a design perspective which they usually mesh
but they don't always mesh. Acrobat,
I use to run preflights on all of my files, so you don't edit from Acrobat, but you can,
I check, I use the output preview. I run preflights. I check to see file size.
I learn about the fonts that are embedded into the program or into the file. Illustrator,
I use very limited, but I'll edit color in Illustrator. And then Photoshop,
it's mostly to check file sizes for our editorial team.
If they are doing a book that has a photo insert or photos throughout, they might send me a whole chunk of art, pieces of art, and ask me if those will print
okay. So I have to quickly be able to look at all of those art pieces and tell them, okay, like, this is the right size.
Can you get a better size of this?
Yeah. And also, I mean in, and it's funny because it, it does differ between publishing houses, because I would say the one I use the most is actually Acrobat, because we do, that's how we receive our proofs
mostly. We also, when we're sending our file, there is the pre-flight that Christie mentioned, but we also we send pdfs to print.
So I do check, aside from free flight, like I'll, I'll use it just to review like, if we're sending black text pdf
or full color pdfs, so I, we do spend quite a bit, and we do, like for reprints and stuff,
we will go in and mark up files in Acrobat to send those to the printer. In Design
I don't use that often. I use it, maybe kind of, like Christie, that she uses Photoshop, almost to check specs, like I'll check trim size and page counts and layout, especially if you have something like a gate fold where it's not your standard layout and I need to
have a better idea of what the layout looks like, so I can communicate it to the printer when requesting costs, that kind of thing.
So it's, it's more of a just popping in to check it.
I'm not allowed to mess around too much with In Design files, because the designers don't like it when I do that.
Agreed. Designers don't like it.
That's okay. We're all in the same team. Yeah.
That's right. And we really are. I mean, that's that's again what's awesome about production is that you do work so close to with so many other departments.
And you really do feel like a team
For sure. Teamwork. Perfect. Okay. Well, it was lovely chatting with you, Dori, and great.
As well
I'm so pleased with all the questions. I'm sorry we didn't get a chance to answer them all.
But thank you very much for all of your time, and who knows?
Maybe we'll see you soon
Yes.